tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post2675796288504041002..comments2024-03-03T19:52:17.901+00:00Comments on ReARM ~ RedNev's Blog: Smoking and the myth of the deluded drinkerNeville Grundyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-50239633735961415402016-03-26T19:05:33.880+00:002016-03-26T19:05:33.880+00:00I thought I had answered it, but you didn't li...I thought I had answered it, but you didn't like the answer.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-20231547559691723732016-03-26T18:25:30.386+00:002016-03-26T18:25:30.386+00:00These are GBG pubs, not all pubs. They are chosen ...These are GBG pubs, not all pubs. They are chosen because they are the best, not because they are average or typical.<br /><br />And you still haven't answered the question I posed on your blog. The reason is because you know you cannot.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-42662477981351218752016-03-26T17:14:03.250+00:002016-03-26T17:14:03.250+00:00And in the 2007 GBG, 34 out of 73 entries in Chesh...And in the 2007 GBG, 34 out of 73 entries in Cheshire (47%) are shown as having non-smoking areas. Rare my arse.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-2720089790530955652016-03-26T16:42:21.626+00:002016-03-26T16:42:21.626+00:00Which just underlines the point that it is dangero...Which just underlines the point that it is dangerous to generalise from limited personal experience. I might do a bit more digging in the 2007 GBG and see what I can unearth...Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-55446222752843398772016-03-26T15:31:39.276+00:002016-03-26T15:31:39.276+00:00There's no way I'd drink in the Tory Club,...There's no way I'd drink in the Tory Club, which is not close to where I live anyway. I did sometimes drink in the Berkeley, and there wasn't a non-smoking area. As it was a small one-room bar, it would have been impossible anyway: whoever wrote that entry was mistaken. The Sir Henry Segrave is a Spoons which I did state had a non-smoking area. The Bold is a hotel, not a pub; I was writing about pubs. I was clear that I was writing about my <i>personal experience</i> of pubs, i.e. those I frequented. At no point did I claim to have surveyed every pub in the area; what I have written about the many pubs I did frequent is completely correct; there is nothing wrong with my memory.<br /><br />I don't live in Lancashire and there is little or no public transport from where I live to the pubs there, so I hardly ever visit them, except recently in the car to deliver CAMRA mags.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-30839191443912335172016-03-25T21:38:09.452+00:002016-03-25T21:38:09.452+00:00Anyway, I've found a time machine of sorts, in...Anyway, I've found a time machine of sorts, in the form of the 2007 <i>Good Beer Guide</i>, the last one before the ban came in. Let's see what it tells us, then...<br /><br />In Southport, there are ten entries, of which four - the Ainsdale Conservative Club, Berkely Arms, Bold Arms and Sir Henry Segrave, are shown as having non-smoking areas. That's 40%, so if anyone really insisted in having a drink in a smoke-free area in Southport, they'd have plenty of choice. <br /><br />Then, moving out into the nearby countryside, the four nearest pubs to Southport - the Derby Arms at Aughton, the Blue Bell at Barton, the Scarisbrick Arms and Downholland and the Legh Arms at Mere Brow, all had non-smoking areas.<br /><br />So I suggest your memory is perhaps a touch defective.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-24214515298303132222016-03-24T23:51:01.046+00:002016-03-24T23:51:01.046+00:00Before the smoking ban, every time I went to the p...Before the smoking ban, every time I went to the pub, I had to incinerate all my clothing and flay off all my own skin. It's so much better now.Freddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-64644186769471652412016-03-24T17:09:10.612+00:002016-03-24T17:09:10.612+00:00I never really gave a shit about the "passive...I never really gave a shit about the "passive smoking" argument.<br /><br />I gave a lot of shits about the active smelling of smoke argument though.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-8680945714632904672016-03-23T21:14:37.411+00:002016-03-23T21:14:37.411+00:00Given the state of ventilation technology, it'...Given the state of ventilation technology, it's all rather academic whether it's a health issue or a personal choice issue. The fact is that smoking bans in pubs are nothing to do with health, and everything about stigmatising and 'denormalising' smokers in an effort to coerce them into giving up something they enjoy. Or to put it another way, it's an exercise in social engineering. <br /><br />There was never any justification for the smoking bans, so the myth of SHS was invented, with the explicit rider that ventilation systems could not be part of the equation, regardless of how efficient they might be.<br /><br />I left UK years before the smoking ban came into effect (thankfully), but one of my local haunts when I was living there was a hotel bar, owned by a somewhat anti-smoking landlord. However, rather than ban smoking and lose most of his customers, he installed an air scrubbing device, and it was so efficient that you could be sitting next to someone smoking a Cuban cigar and be unaware of it. And that was fifteen years ago. Ventilation technology has advanced in leaps and bounds since then. It would be completely feasible to have smoking in pubs with nobody (apart from the phobic anti-smokers for whom the mere sight of a ciggy is palpitation-inducing) being in the least bit inconvenienced. <br /><br />But of course, that wouldn't be allowed because it would change the carefully constructed 'untermenschen' status of smokers, which was the reason for the bans all along.nisakimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563041282703559939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-73925747435665326122016-03-23T20:44:21.601+00:002016-03-23T20:44:21.601+00:00The most daft non-smoking area I've seen was i...The most daft non-smoking area I've seen was in the Biko Bar in Bradford University. A big one room pub the no smoking area was opposite the door on a raised area - running along the windows - so obviously all the smoked funnelled out of the windows via this area. Brain fart in action that one.<br /><br />In each instance it is always about denormalising behaviour which is, for the moment, legal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-44268516044073320572016-03-23T16:58:56.158+00:002016-03-23T16:58:56.158+00:00A minority of Spoons went fully non-smoking in adv...A minority of Spoons went fully non-smoking in advance of the ban, but they backed away from making it universal as sales dropped off a cliff.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-44097172501582236122016-03-23T16:38:41.929+00:002016-03-23T16:38:41.929+00:00While the smoking ban was touted as health and saf...While the smoking ban was touted as health and safety legislation, the underlying motivation was always the restriction of smoking <i>per se</i>. Even accepting the "passive smoking" argument, smoking in pubs could have been restricted to separate rooms with self-closing doors and no bar counter or table service, in the same way as it is still permitted in hotel rooms (subject to the agreement of the hotel owner).<br /><br />And, talking of the market, if it hadn't happened, my guess would be that pretty much all of the new-wave craft beer bars would be entirely non-smoking. Thus opening up yet another division in the pub trade.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-81686629862615275402016-03-23T16:33:08.333+00:002016-03-23T16:33:08.333+00:00First they came for those abusing Niemöller.
Then ...First they came for those abusing Niemöller.<br />Then they came for those "For evil to triumph' spouters.<br />Next they came for the Hugo quoters.<br />Finally they came for anyone typing "Godwin's Law LOL111!!"<br /><br />But they left me alone cos they were scared of the 4th hand smoke from my comments.<br />The Blocked Dwarfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-27632251944662471832016-03-23T16:24:46.489+00:002016-03-23T16:24:46.489+00:00I'm also a left-libertarian; I do prefer a smo...I'm also a left-libertarian; I do prefer a smoke-free environment, but I can't see how my freedom of action is enhanced by the ban.<br /><br />The other way that 'the market' might have addressed the problem, given half a chance, is through the opening of new, smoke-free bars - something that was starting to happen before the ban. And didn't Spoons go smoke-free, not long before the ban came in - or am I imagining that?<br /><br />As for health & safety, if I'm remembering right, the policy in Labour's manifesto would have allowed pubs to convert to no-smoking if it was what the staff wanted. That policy (which I broadly support) would have been about workplace H&S. (I'm sceptical about the health effects of passive smoking for punters, but constant exposure to a smoky environment can't be good for anyone.) But the blanket ban which Labour brought in (and which nobody voted for, unless one of the other parties was advocating it) is just about driving down the number of people smoking.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-79933881959586060992016-03-23T16:06:56.484+00:002016-03-23T16:06:56.484+00:00Can either of you correct my thinking in that the ...Can either of you correct my thinking in that the smoking ban was brought in more as a work place health and safety effort rather than a customer led piece of legislation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-8982793554671361212016-03-23T16:00:06.221+00:002016-03-23T16:00:06.221+00:00"When smoking in pubs was legal, smokers show...<i>"When smoking in pubs was legal, smokers showed no consideration for the comfort of anyone else who perhaps didn’t want to breathe their smoke or go home stinking of it." </i><br /><br />So in what way was people doing something that was legal and generally accepted showing a lack of consideration for others? Should everyone have stopped smoking just because one prissy individual entered the room?<br /><br />I don't like drinking in pubs where there are screeching children running around. But I don't want to see it banned, although I would like to see more child-free areas.<br /><br />And, in the absence of any alternative provision, where are the smokers standing outside the door meant to go? Home?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-52912718510753849382016-03-23T15:23:22.639+00:002016-03-23T15:23:22.639+00:00I appreciate you taking the trouble to write such ...I appreciate you taking the trouble to write such a detailed response. As I've said before, I always find your blog interesting and we find plenty of agreement in our experience of beer and pubgoing. It's also good to see there are still some left-libertarians about ;-)<br /><br />I could write a book on this, but time is short, so I'll just make a handful of points:<br /><br />1. We've discussed this before, but my recollection is that, pre-ban, a substantial proportion of pubs had some kind of non-smoking provision, maybe around a third. Yes, wet-led working-class pubs were under-represented, but it certainly wasn't anywhere near as rare as you suggest. For example, the Griffin in Heaton Mersey near me, a classic Holt's boozer, had one of its five rooms as non-smoking. Obviously without a time machine I can't prove this.<br /><br />2. The market would have provided an answer, but based on what people *really* want, not what they say they want. Before the ban, most restaurants and pubs with dedicated dining areas were either entirely or mostly non-smoking. Nobody had forced them to do that - they had implemented it because it's what their customers asked for. Maybe the anti-smoking crusaders, if they really cared about pubs, should have used their efforts to campaign for more non-smoking provision rather than a total ban.<br /><br />3. It's an interesting moral question as to what extent the "most people drink with smoking friends" argument is justified as a reason for a ban. Nobody has to go in pubs (as opposed to eating places), and surely adults should be treated as rational actors who can make a decision not to go along with friends if they think they're leading them into a risky situation. And it's taking the argument to the extreme if it's used as justification for not permitting any kind of "collective" adult smoking, for example in dedicated smoking clubs, in which non-smokers were also allowed.<br /><br />It's also still very noticeable how, in many pubs, when the weather improves, pretty much the whole non-dining clientele, both smokers and non-smokers, migrates outside into the outdoor smoking area.<br /><br />4. This is certainly not a dead issue. It was wrong in 2007 and it's just as wrong now. It's not going away. Nine years after it came into effect, US Prohibition was still regarded as a permanent fixture, but the Great Depression swept it away. <br /><br />And, as reported by the <i>Scottish Mail on Sunday</i>, a majority of the population still <a href="http://taking-liberties.squarespace.com/blog/2016/3/20/scotland-majority-of-adults-support-smoking-rooms-in-pubs-an.html" rel="nofollow">support separate smoking rooms in pubs and clubs</a>. Yes, i know that's on Simon Clark's blog, but the article isn't online and he provides a snapshot of it. Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285162121291357473.post-64736380746481491922016-03-23T14:58:17.505+00:002016-03-23T14:58:17.505+00:00When smoking in pubs was legal, smokers showed no ...When smoking in pubs was legal, smokers showed no consideration for the comfort of anyone else who perhaps didn’t want to breathe their smoke or go home stinking of it. Judging by the way they stand in the doorways of pubs now, blocking the way for anyone trying to get in or out, they still don’t. Barmhttp://refreshingbeer.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com